W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Yea but some just plain want it gone and will argue it till the end lol

They stated the feature was intended for getting away in a pinch, that's not how it's presented in the video of the Rage reveal not one bit. This change of heart or however You'd like to call it coupled with the fact that there's evidence as old as GU 17 on a playstyle like this existing, is also a huge part of our reaction. We've been playing this game in this way for years, it was reinforced at one point by the devs, now they're calling it a loophole to be polite I guess, and we got people pouring out the hate on this playstyle calling us exploiters and requesting for ridiculous magnitudes of the change that would effectively kill this playstyle.

Thats pretty much the gist of it.

I do not want it gone. I completely support the change to the dovetail system. It fixes a broken mechanic into a non-game breaking mechanic.

1st I'm cool with the slight delay. The message I want to send to the devs is that nerfing is not the answer to the difficult question which is balance. I understand you have hordes of players coming at you everyday with request, compliments, and insults. However the first thing I suggest you do when someone says something needs a nerf is to ask 3 questions:
1. Can everyone do what is explained
2. Does it provide significant advantage over other powers/weapons
3. Why would nefing said item help the person asking for the nerf

A lot of people believe that HL, celestial, and Rage cannot be beat, because people tell them that. Every thread list this as so, and novice players believe it to be true. In all actuality all 3 can and are smashed on a regular basis. I would say that power balancing so far has been good minus 2 or 3 powers (Electricity, earth, and some say fire). The truth of this game is that 70% of Dps are Trash, 10% are good and above average, 15% are Monsters, and 5% are the elite of the elite.

To me true balancing come from not making all powers the same, because uniqueness is what makes the game fun and interesting. True balancing is if power A can do 500k damage in X amount of time, then power B should also be able to do 500k damage in the same amount of time for similar (not the same) amount of power.

I'm glad that its just a delay and not a complete removal like some want. I just don't want the devs to start a trend where instead of properly boosting other powers we just nerf one and be left with to bad powers. I truly believe that if the devs would actually sit down and play a power for a month and not just look at numbers on a screen they would truly understand what we say, but I know that's not always possible. I look forward to seeing what the devs have planned for the future and hope they just don't sweep certain powers under the rug.

CrappyHeals said: ↑

Umm... I dunno where you guys get this idea you're being hounded to erase all JC altogether. I have only been stressing the need to curtail Jump-Cancelling, I have always chimed in agreement with Spytle when he said JC isn't going away, but it *IS* changing to close the loophole that has been abused. That means no token adjustments of 0.1 or 0.2, yet serious discussion of anything more than that however has always degenerated with you and your supporters into dug-in heels and a refusal to even accept the data provided by Spytle and Tunso at face value.

But I also gotta add, if you are counting the ACTUAL feedback, you're smoking crack if you think that only 6 people support more severe dovetail timers and there's also only SIX of you guys posting against any chances to JC and against dovetailing:

1. Ogat (Who's not even active in the game anymore)
2. The Hornet (Who is quitting the game)
3. Crappy Heals
4. Mentos Troll
5. Dianna
6. Vinny Treshene

Here's just the people I could find in a two minute search that have commented on and clicked in support of my posts:

1. Dark1509
2. Bender
3. Forsberg
4. Umbra
5. Shadowreap3r
6. Helvetica
7. Drathmor
8. Superior Mouse
9. El Presidente
10. Giggles
11. Remander
12. True Olympus
13. Psianide
14. Johnny D
15. Warlan

If you expand to examine those that have supported Spytle's posts, you'll find that there's far more... in excess of 24 at the height of when last I checked, and 13 in his latest post alone. More than 6 in any case.
No one is witch-hunting you, but you really need to take a clear look at the thread and the situation, don't make yourselves out into some kind of gallant resistance movement.

CCBatson is correct, those of us who want the devs to balance the game and fix the jump canceling loophole more than double those of you who do not want any changes or barely any changes. As I said before, the majority wants balance.

As I also said, I am not saying jump canceling should be removed 100%. I am saying jump canceling should no longer be allowed to be used to front load damage. When we jump cancel a weapon attack or utility power, there should be a 1 to 1.2 second cool down preventing us from using another weapon attack or utility power, again to prevent front loading damage, while also canceling the damage after the jump and removing any PI set ups.

That means we will ALL still be able to jump cancel to avoid imminent death. That means support roles casting beneficial powers will still be able to jump cancel anything. The only thing that we are asking to be fixed is how jump canceling can be used to front load damage. THAT is the loophole with jump canceling.

Jump canceling should nullify all weapon and utility flagged abilities if jump canceled, that includes any power interaction set ups. As it stands, those of us who jump cancel to front load dps do at least 2.5x more damage than anyone else. We need that number to be as close to 1.0x to match all sets. Any number that is below the universal animation time change of 1 to 1.2 seconds is not balancing anything, it is just lowering the unbalanced number of 2.5x slightly.

I have said this before, and I will say it again, this is an MMO. MMOs are ever changing, ever evolving games. They do not remain the same, ever. New mechanics, systems, etc are constantly being changed or added. These changes currently being discussed are to help this game in the long run. These changes are to ensure that power sets are better balanced. These changes are to ensure the devs can make the game challenging for all of us with out us using loop holes to overcome the challenge they throw at us. This is change, for the better. Period.

even I think 1s-1.2 seconds is far too extreme. The devs actually said that they are making all animation in between 1s-1.2s, so making the Dove time that high literally nullifies the reason to jump cancel.

Wrong, jump canceling would be used to avoid imminent death. That is what it was intended for. That is what it would still be used for with my idea. With my idea it prevents it from being used as a tool to deal damage. This is not extreme at all, this is how it was supposed to work all along.

Any number under 1 to 1.2 seconds for the dovetail would simply mean that number Spytpe gave us of 2.5x more damage would only be slightly reduced. The only way to bring that number in line with every other power set and animation time is to give jump canceling the same animation time as all the other animations, so it brings it as close to the 1.0x as possible.

If they are going to fix this, I'd rather them FIX it once and for all, rather than band aide it and come back and finish the job later. The sooner everyone gets used to the new system, the faster everyone can adapt properly.

I don;t think you quite understood, If the dovetail for it is the same exact time as the animation it cancels.... than how is that really a cancellation? How do you avoid the attack?

And they will find themselves as unhappy as people who want no changes to JC at all or a 0.1 change. JC isn't going to be removed.
From the previous thread to this one, most people were considering .3-.5.

0.1 isn't going to be considered as mentioned before on Spytle's OP from the closed/concluded thread ("And to be honest, suggestions like 0.01- 0.1 are not going to taken very seriously"). People arguing to make JC completely useless or to remove it will most likely be taken as seriously as people arguing for a 0.1 change.

I understand what Giggles is trying to argue for, but 1 second is just too long (since animations will be 1-1.2 secs) and falls with the above paragraph. Might as well remove it. While JC was designed as a means to avoid death, it evolved into more than that and devs obviously supported it and were okay with it before went out of control.

And what are those mechanics?

Some people will still frown on a .3 or even .5 change, some people will temporarily leave the game or just threaten to leave the game if the change is over 0.1/0.2. Most of us will be fine with a fair compromise; it's too late to remove it and it's causing development problems to keep it untouched. What should be taken into consideration, though, are the animation changes that are also going to happen along with said dovetail to JC.

I wouldn't expect a response that makes any sense if I were you.

I know that Spytle explained it once already but now I am self-doubting again if I am reading his explanation of "dovetailing" correctly...

I'm going to try to put it into a contextual example and see if it garners a response that clarifies the situation.

How I currently read the explanation, is as follows:

1. Player is performing a rotation, clipping a power, let's call it "Acme", with a jump-cancel.
2. Acme is clipped by the jump, and now is subject to a delay in animation time, the dovetail, that accompanies and forces the jump animation to play out (in the air and landing) before another power (Let's call it Cheddar) can be clipped into the rotation.
3. Even though the key has been activated for the next power animation, Cheddar is stuck waiting in the dovetail period until that period is elapsed and the next action triggers in the queue.
4. Hence the JC dovetail occurs AFTER Acme but BEFORE Cheddar, being attached to the Jump animation.

This interpretation seemed to me to make the most sense in allowing an escape JC action to occur in the event of danger, while also slowing down the queue of clipped offense after the jump occurs.

Now if we look at the way other people seem to be reading the JC explanation, it would seem to be as follows:

1. Player is going through a rotation, and JC's after action Acme.
2. Our Player clips the Jump Button, and his current action Acme is cut short but now must play through a dovetail period of animation before the Jump animation and action is actually triggered and plays through.
3. Our Player continues pressing the next action in his rotation, which is the Cheddar power, and is queued while waiting for his Jump and the dovetail to play out, before the next queued action can take place.
4. The dovetail elapses on the original Acme action and animation, the Jump action triggers, is clipped into action Cheddar, and the rotation continues as before.

This interpretation seems to make less sense to me simply because it doesn't seem to accomplish the ability of escaping danger during the Acme phase, and still doesn't impact the desired end of slowing down the Cheddar phase, seemingly to comprise the worst of two worlds.

If I have misunderstood, I'd love to hear from Spytle of this, because I am sure I cannot be the only one- and it is imperative that we are all on the same page of what exactly the dovetail will do and when. This can change how the duration of the dovetail is perceived and what kid of time elapsed we are actually talking about here to be meaningful.

I don't doubt that almost everybody here agrees with the dovetail, in what we disagree is about the times:

• Times over 0.6s won't be useful to keep the mechanic alive because you can avoid the JC and clip instead with a tap range.
• Times under 0.2s (aprox) are not taken into consideration.
• If the animation normalization is 1-1.2, at least you need to be able to skip half of that time for keeping JC any useful.
• Therefore, dovetails from 0-2 to 0.5 should be the way to go.
• Also, it's not the same JC burst damage than DoTs, so the different types of JC powers should be also looked at to define the properly dovetail.

Next, I don't remember if this has been answered, but the JC into a tap or a hold is going stay? Like, use X power, tap/hold range and then JC. I'm not sure about that point.Also, I guess there will be some kind of general revamp to all powers damage alongside the normalization times.

OFFTOPIC: And just a thing that I don't understand.. why rage was released with a super strong JC power as plasma retch (used in almost every rotation), and 2 months later announce that JC is unintended and a loophole giving almost 2.5 times better dps that other powers. I really don't get why give rage such a power if was already considered as non intended....

Maybe I did not explain it right. Let me explain it more detailed.

For example, say I use fear gas, and jump cancel it. What I feel should happen when jump canceled, is the damage from gear should stop instantly, like Banes venom shout in legends. Then there is a 1 to 1.2 second delay before I would be able to use any other utility power (Gauss Grenade, Fear Gas, Napalm Grenade, etc) AND any weapon attack. The only thing you would be able to use right away is a beneficial power. There would be a 0 second cool down on beneficial abilities.

This would effectively prevent jump canceling from being used in any way to front load damage, while allowing support roles to continue to use it as it is on live, but correcting the DPS imbalances that currently exist.

The dovetail could exist as well, but the point I am trying to make is if they do not prevent jump cancel from aiding in front loading damage 100%, then there will never be balance like they are seeking. Spotless said those who utilize jump canceling currently put out 2.5x more damage. I believe my idea would effectively get it as close to a uniform 1.0x as possible, across all sets, at which point they could better balance everything. At this point, the only thing a DPS would be using jump canceling for is to avoid imminent death, which is what the devs intended all along.

What that makes no sense. Setting the dovetail time to 1-1.2s is almost equivalent to getting rid of JC, that is what we are trying to prevent. Isnt changing it to .5 enough?

Rage is not exactly the most balanced power in the world.

You have a problem reading the voting system.

He understands. You're not understanding him.

To you, why would you jump cancel if the animation time is the same as a real power/weapon animation? There's the problem. Jump Cancelling is not supposed to be for damage. It's to avoid damage. You JC to avoid damage, not to create it.

By saying he wants the dovetail to play the length of a normal power animation, he's saying it will only be used for escaping damage at that length. He doesn't want it misused for "front loading" damage anymore.

I'm gonna dislike this post and I'll explain why. You're coming from it thinking that the "nerfs" that happen are the result of someone asking for it. Like it's some kind of personal favour.

The Devs are professionals. They're not nerfing anything because Joe, Frank or Tony QQ'd and said it's OP and we gotta look after the boys... You make it sound like a bunch of kids at school in playground... "You broke my toy, now I'm gonna break yours'" or something worse. These are professionals building a product worth lots of money. The checklist you have there is not necessary.

This isn't a nerf. It's a fix. If it's done to everything it's a fix, or rebalance. If it's done to one thing it's a nerf or buff. Weapons weren't nerfed. They were rebalanced to bring damage inline with what the devs want for the pace of the game. HL, Cel, Rage aren't being nerfed. JCClipping is being fixed so that it can't be misused because some powersets are able to misuse it better than others.

There are different types of balance. And they are better for some scenarios vs others. You can't have balance without all the powersets having an even footing. That's what's happening here. Also, in an MMO, you probably shouldn't have balance in the form you want. There are certain scenarios where that type of balance doesn't work well. This type of game is one of them because there are too many possible gameplay variables to account for. The devs have to balance powers and weapons by normalizing them, instead of building in strengths and weaknesses like you want, so they all have more similar abilities. If this was a tournament fighter game like Street Fighter with no rooms and no different types of gameplay goals, your version of balance would be fine. But it doesn't work in an MMO because they're too different. There are different rooms and every room is different and sometimes you have to do more than kill the other guy in those rooms.

It's not equivalent to getting rid of JC.

We need JC to avoid damage, so no we're not getting rid of it. We shouldn't be using it to create damage in DPS rotations. It's getting rid of it's misuse. That's why we're here having this discussion.

Not quite.

Crappy said most people are willing to have a <.5 sec dovetail. Judging from the responses of the thread, and responses from the previous thread of which JCing dovetail times took up the majority, most people are in favour of a delayed jump cancel.

Unless you have a tally count somewhere of who is in favour of what then my observation is just as valid as yours.