On the Subject of PTS NC MAXes

The Mattock gets more kills in total, more per user, and has a similar (or better) KPH to the other factions. This means the NC needs fewer MAX units to achieve the same/better results. The fact TR, for instance, needs to pull up to a hundred more MAX units to even reach a similar KPH is not a point in their favor.

Doesn't mean the PTS changes are good but... Doesn't mean the NC MAX is struggling on live either (quite the opposite by the looks of it). So let's stay on topic, shall we, it is the PTS changes which have to be addressed, right? This is going to be very difficult if we can't even discuss the current performance honestly and thoroughly.

At this point, it seems it is more important to one-up each other (not just you). You were both half-right (or half-wrong if you're a glass half empty kind of guy). I've been drawn into a few bouts of egos myself and don't let that detract from the issue at hand, namely, these changes are nonsense.

Wrong interpretation. You don't say "hey we need fewer to achieve the same, now we won't try to exceed our enemies". You try to beat them to a pulp, if your weapon is indeed superior you spam the hell out of them and murder your foes.
Instead despite the "higher" score we see that they are used less. This means that something is going on in the background, namely what I've been calling all along: NC MAX's have a much more narrow situation they are useable in, so when they are used that situation is available. This is similar to how some people try to boost their stats by wielding a medkit, repairgun or similar non-weapon when not in combat so that when they do pull out their weapon, the total usage time vs kills seems much better than it actually is. In the meantime the VS and TR MAX are more often pulled in situation they aren't perfect in, meaning more pulls and lower average stats. Add in the average higher BR and thus experience in the game for Mattock users and the stat makes perfect sense the way it is.

Also using KPH for all users is a crappy move of that site, it's a very murky statistic compared to actual average KPH per user, which is now much harder to gauge on a day to day basis unless you do the math yourself which makes the graps much less useful. Oracle Of Death at least used KPH properly per user and was much more clear.

Exactly, so people should recognize that cherry-picking different stats without interpreting the whole is a bad business practice. It's like buying 2x 500 ml of milk "because each is cheaper than a single 1L" and missing that buying a 1L milkpack will cost less in total, but more than each single 500ml.

These changes are nonsense. If you sacrifice range for firepower up close, you need to actually have firepower up close. If they nerf our firepower up close, then we should get reasonable range in return. Reasonable would be that if we deal less damage in CQC than the TR and VS, that we need to deal more damage at range than the TR and VS. Unfortunately we'll be dealing less damage at any range. Yey!

Mmm, think that's backwards. Same KPH and higher KPU means the NC Max is being used LESS and achieving the same amount of kills.

KPU is basically KDR. The NC Max dominates here. A given player pulling a Max suit will do substantially better if that is an NC Max suit.

Oof bruh i gave up and i recommend you to do the same. They can also theorycraft that 2 guys with knifes working together could kill NC max because he have long reload so devs are NC biased.

I’m somewhat impartial when it comes to the max changes.

HOWEVER, I’m a huge advocate of empire differences. Having everything homogenized is boring. Embracing the differences, no matter how assymetric, makes the game immensely more interesting.

I think a bigger issue at work here isn’t necessarily the benefits and drawbacks of each Empire’s characteristic and traits, but more so the environment. It just happens that the NC shines in an indoor, enclosed environment where the bulk of the fights are contested.

I don’t know a good solution, but I hope they maintain the trait differences that defined PS and made it great to begin with.

And NC complaining that increased cone of fire leads to more teakills, like that not what NC is about lool. These changes are pretty much expected. An NC MAX up close is almost indestructible as they can instagib anything, execpt other MAXes which die in more or less one clip of both shotguns. NC MAXes are quite unstoppable up close, however begin to be useless past 10-15m. I think evening out the dps on all levels will help the NC MAX be competitive from longer ranges, while still give some trouble to people up close. I personally welcome these changes, although i will miss those scatt-MAX instagibs when i play NC.

KPU isn't KDR.

Say you have 1000 kills on 10 users, and 1000 kills on 100 users.
KPU for number 1 is 100.
KPU on number 2 is 10.
The amount of deaths does not matter here. The number 1 KPU could have been achieved with 2000 deaths (KDR of 0.5) while the number 2 could have achieved their 1000 kills with 500 deaths (KDR of 2).

This again means that interpretation of all the stats is important, rather than cherry-picking like Zanaffar does. Zanaffar claims that everyone else is theorycrafting while he's quite literally picking a single stat each time and then saying "this means they be OP!", without considering why a stat came to be like that. He doesn't even use a theory, he just picks what suits him and says what he feels is true.
Again as an analogy, he thinks that buying 2 milkpacks of 1L for 2 dollars is cheaper than 1 milkpack of 2L for 1.5 dollars because he only looks at the pricetag of a single unit, not at what he gets for the same amount of liters. So for the umptillionth time because it doesn't seem to sink in:

Use all the damn stats

Don't cherrypick.

Can you prove that the bulk of fights happen indoors?

Most fights I see happen from door-to-door, cover-to-cover. You don't wait for an enemy to enter, you wait at the door and shoot at him as he approaches. This way you have the most control over how quickly you can be in cover and still can engage him when he gets inside rather than having already run out of options the moment he enters.

This is reflected in the weapon stats. If the game revolves around CQC then CQC weapons would:
1: Be used far more often than any other weapon type
2: Would score better than any other weapon type.

Yet we see that the CQC weapons, especially the "best" CQC weapons called shotguns, don't get used much compared to all the other weapons available. So how can you justify "everything happens indoors and in enclosed environments"?

He's not. He's explaining to you guys how a similar/to better KPH with a higher KPU as well probably is resulting in a better KDR. Why? Because a fewer number of MAX units are achieving the same kills per hour as a greater number of VS/TR MAX units.

Wait, so people say, "Let's keep using sub-optimal gear so we can be moderately effective in beating people into a pulp."

Indeed, it could also mean people use their NC MAX units with a purpose while being murderously effective doing so they won't have to roll out with less than optimal weapons once they've achieved the objective of massacring people. Furthermore, slugs + shield is brutal and adds range now that MAX charge ain't a thing anymore. It might even be why they're suddenly pulled off the NC MAX. This is all theorizing but so is your claims.

No, and I'll explain why.

Let's say we have two players, Player A and Player B. Player A uses the Mattock, and Player B uses the Blueshift.
Player A and Player B both have a KPH of 30 for their respective weapons. Meaning that, on average, they get 30 kills per hour.

Lets say we're measuring KPU over a 24-hour period. (different sites may use different time periods, but it doesn't actually matter.)

On Saturday, Player A plays for 4 hours, and with his KPH of 30, gets 120 kills.
Player B plays for 2 hours, and with his KPH of 30, gets 60 kills.

Since 'U' for each weapon is 1 in this scenario, it's easy to calculate KPU: The Mattock has a KPU of 120, while the Blueshift has a KPU of 60.

Since both users have the same KPH, the weapon with the higher KPU is the one that was used more.

Too much logic and math for you?

Key word: "probably".

Also this still points to the NC MAX being used more exclusively for it's optimal combat, while the VS and TR use theirs more often but not exclusively for their optimal ranges but also outside it.

That is basically what they said. "NC MAX is OP, so people stop using it the moment they reach similar stats as the VS/TR MAX's". It's a ridiculous argument.

Claims that you can verify easily in-game. Look at where MAX's are used. Hell even the people against NC MAX's proclaim it: "We enter a Biolab fight and NC MAX's galore!". Since NC MAX's see the least usage, it can only mean that in a few specific fights the NC MAX can actually be used with some effect. And even without MAX's biolab fights for example are heavily slated in the defender favor, giving them an easy time gaining a high amount of kills. Everything continously points to the NC MAX being used only in it's optimal scenario because it's useless outside it, while the TR and VS MAX see much more usage but also outside of their optimal ranges.

Good luck convincing anyone of anything when you act as if the whole ship is sinking.

How am I acting that the ship is sinking? They cried a tsunamy of tears, and I point out that their tears arent as justified.

Unfortunately now that you mention it, the ship IS sinking. Look at the changes to the NC MAX, its going to be worse off in almost every single way. Less ammo capacity, less DPS, less range, more reload time, less accuracy per bullet (compared to TE and VS, despite the accuracy upgrade), more damage degradation... What do NC MAX's have left? More alpha damage? Useless if it cant finish the fight, and only scatmax's will be able to do that IF all pellets hit within the maximum damage range. The tsumani of tears worked and is capsizing the boat.

If you look at some of my responses, like the first few in this thread, you'll notice I'm not opposed in any way to changing the NC MAX. In fact I'm all for it. What I'm against is the terrible arguments that proclaim the NC MAX is the ultimate murder machine that has blighted the game since inception... Yet this ultimate tool of destruction is hardly used at all compared to the VS and TR MAX's. When I point that out the best response so far was on the lines of "they just dont use them when they reach the stats the TR and VS will get", which is bullcrap in a game where the most OP weapons are used continously by many more people. But most people dont come with a reason at all. What's your idea for why the NC MAX is rarely used? Or are you going to join the masses and avoid uncomfotable questions that go against what you think?

I can see where you're coming from and I agree the changes on PTS are stupid. Just saying that things got too defensive just when someone pointed out that statistically speaking the NC MAX is doing really well in its current state which can lead to misunderstandings.

There can be many reasons, what I'm suggesting are counter-arguments. Perhaps VS/TR use more MAX units because they have to. Perhaps the reason the NC MAX is performing so well actually are sluggers extending the range and they also work really well with the shield. On the other hand, I think it is likely NC players more frequently switch classes when done with the MAX but I also do that when playing VS/TR. I actually tend to change into AA or AV when venturing outside with MAX as most of a push will be Sunderer mop-up duty or air trolling the ground.

At this point, with the changes on PTS, more specifically the removal of slugs, I think the NC MAX should get MAX charge instead of the shield to fully embrace the CQC side or why not keep the shield and give all the MAX units a little something something to better suit their roles.

And thats why you are already miles better than the other people in this discussion, you dare think about both sides and multiple reasons.

Regardless of what we think of the current MAX I think we both agree that all MAX's could use some adaptation. You can see that every time an extremely powerful weapon is in the game, it requires a ridiculous downside to balance which makes it extremely hit or miss in effectiveness. I would personally start with making the health of MAX's lower but increasing their versatility so they become more effective in general combat outside of short ranges.

Yeah, and when we consider the two pain-points tend to be (the point you raise) 1) NC MAX is too narrow in focus and 2) VS/TR hating to get dunked in CQC (OHK is always going to be a touchy subject) we got a dual layer which contributes to a less fun overall experience. Just at the top of my head a larger mag and something similar to how semi-auto shotguns work might be a happy medium. Haven't really thought much about how it'd work mechanically though.

Yes larger magazine and more easily used like semi-auto shotgun would be nice.

I think that if we are changing the MAX, removing the OHK (unless you headshot) would be a great way to start if only to shut up the others. However that does not mean you have to change the DPS. Halve the damage on all current shotties but double the fire rate would already remove the OHK but still keep that DPS you need to compensate for the lack of range.

One option they could use BTW is that splitting bullet method they are working on. Imagine shooting just 2 pellets per gun and dealing up to 850 damage in CQC per salvo with those 4 total pellets (to prevent OHK's unless you hit the head), but after a certain amount of meters these pellets split into many pellets forming the shotgun pattern we know. Each shotgun type can have this split happen at different distances, the Mattock is long-range so it'll split the latest while the CQC-oriented Hacksaw would split the earliest. However, because of damage degradation the damage at that point would still not exceed the 850 per salvo. It allows NC MAX's to be more accurate at range, have more DPS at range and still removes the OHK. Change the fire rate to make sure NC MAX's aren't helpless in CQC against other MAX's like they are now and you are good to go!

Other options could center around more utility, like being able to fire a solid slug that breaks apart upon contact with a surface and sprays a few pellets away (beginning of this video: ). The solid slug would deal not enough damage for OHK's even on a headshot so that the player is encouraged to use it for bouncing it near enemy feet and near doorways etc. You could even give the player control to detonate it mid-air if he thinks he's fast enough for accurate detonation. Even more fun: When detonating mid-air the pellets spray in the direction you are moving your screen (with a threshold so that tracking a target at range doesn't activate it). Move left, spray the pellets left. Move down, spray the pellets down (in an attempt to hit someone behind cover for example). Since people would be afraid of an NC MAX just spraying a doorway from a safe position, a firing delay is added every time you use the mid-air detonation. just think of it as a precaution to prevent the next shell detonating in the barrel of the weapon.

TBH i did not read to all your posts, so sry if i say somethng already mentioned.

If u look at it for real, not only on stats, the NC Max ist still, even with these nerfs, the most powerful max!

Almost everyone (if not used as AA Max) uses a max for Point rush or point defense. And with 2 or 3 NC maxes standing a A point with some engys and medics...NOONE is able to get inside this room. The CoF buff now makes it even more OP imo.
I play mainly VS, and i can tell you that we play very tactical, but we are even with overpop not able to enter a room with NC maxes inside. And no its not lack of skill
In easy words..a NC max Oneshots every infantry easy...a VS Max cant. Is there more to say..no

Maxes, as i said, are mostly uses for close Quarter combats, and the NC Max is the strongest CQ Max. And, not to forget this, it has a Shield, like no other Max!! So yes, this nerf was needed and i hope it will stabalize the balance between maxes.

I mean, lets take a look at it from no faction side. They nerf VS the most, and the reason is not VS is more OP. They are not even a little bit, on the most sides VS is underpowered. And again, i dont mean stats, cuz stats never show the behavior in a real fight.

So its ok that they now, finally, nerf NC a little bit dont u think. And it is just made a bit more balanced now, it is not a nerf to make the NC max weaker then TR or VS max. it will still stay the strongest MAX. (May it be, that NC is the faction most new players choose, and u want them to stay..hmmmh...just a guess )

well, anyways. Overall i would like to see the developers play this game not just a little bit. Go on a private server with many of ur friends and try it out for yourselfs. Then u will find the unbalanced things. Just to try to balance it by stats wont help!!!

Pretty obvious you didn't read much of any of the posts. With the pts changes the nc max will be the absolute worst, the TR long range option beats the NC's "High damage ccq" option. NC will no longer be the best ccq max.

I wont lie and say that the changes to the NC MAX seems entirely fair and balanced but at the same time VS has been without a MBT since eons ago when they nerfed the Maggie. Now its suicide to take a Magrider into close combat against any other tank, even Lightnings might beat a 2/2 Magrider simply because the Magrider is so slow that if the Lightning gets under it without taking too much damage before it does the Magrider has the fun experience of either slowly trying to float off it while taking hits from below/backside or boosting away to stop the Lightning from just keep moving under it = free rear hit for the Lightning. Any other faction MBT slaughters both a Magrider as well as a Lightning in CQC and yes I have done the Lightning 'trick' multiple times on my faction alts as well even beating 2/2 Magriders in my half upgraded 1/2 Vanguard/Prowlers in 'fair' head on CQC fights.

Im a firm believer that the Magrider is the prototype Harasser, its niche is to use its mobility/terrain traverse to do hit and run attacks against enemy vehicles that cant follow it. Unfortunately the Harasser was released which does the same job but better so attempting that kind of strategy now usually ends up with you being hunted down by 1-2 Harassers that can easily follow you wherever you go, leaving you with 0 hope of escape since they can keep poking at you and repairing until they get a favorable outcome. The danger of being a harasser is that you are often away from friendlies and being the slowest vehicle in the game doesnt exactly help you.

Oh but the Magrider is a stable platform even when it moves so its good at long range!
Yeah but unless you catch the enemy tank in a 20km open field without any cover at all it doesnt really matter, the DPS is not high enough to kill vehicles at long range aside from user error. All other tanks also have the option to simply run away, a Magrider doesnt outrun anything.

Oh but the Magrider can strafe! its like impossible to hit!
Yeah but that also only works at fairly long range and again its more your own fault if you lose a tank against another tank at long range, you should have moved to cover and haha... the Magrider doesnt beat any MBT in close range so its not like it will rush your cover unless you are severely damaged which at that point I would argue that a LA poses an equal or even greater threat than the 2/2 Magrider. The only reason a Strafing Magrider might kill another MBT in mediumish range is because the other tank is for whatever reason trying to compensate and lead in the direction the Magrider is strafing instead of aiming more or less dead center, the Magrider doesnt strafe fast enough to dodge a shot flying in its face unless its long range.

Its a tank that CAN do well in the right environment, circumstances and in the right hands because it can do stuff other tanks cant do but it does the stuff you want a tank to do worse than the other tanks in the game.


Congrats NC, you are getting a Magrider-MAX!
It might be worse than the other factions MAXes but at least it can do stuff the other MAXes cant and it will still be able to do well in the right environment, circumstances and in the right hands just as a Magrider can be really great on the odd hill or whatever taking pot-shots at the enemy. With the shield ability the NC MAX will have some things it can do that other MAXes cant, you better get real good at using that niche because that might be the only thing you have to fall back on now.

Feels good that the Magrider is now joined by something else aside from the Skyguard as a complete one trick pony.

Oh but it can strafe!
Oh but it keeps air away from the (small) area!
Oh but it has a shield and can hold rooms/breach rooms!

Any and all complaints/requests for rebalance you have will now be shot down with this reason.
Tbh I have already lost any faith in PS2 shaping up to become what it should have been, most of the big problems with the game have had answers or at least major improvements suggested by the community years and years ago but some of them would require game design choices that would inconvenience the "If im not in a fight within 10 seconds of starting the game/respawning im not playing" crowd so I assume they were never considered. PS2 'lost' when they decided they wanted everyone and their mother to play it instead of the people who wanted a Planetside game so sorry if im pouring 200ton salt into this thread.