Reaver vs scythe balance

The default noseguns are more versatile when it comes to their effective range. Hoverduels happen at many different ranges, not just up close. Even if the fight starts at close range, once the person with the longer range nosegun decides to RM away, the other person is forced to either continue to hoverduel at a disadvantage, or rush them. Saron vs vortek is a match from hell for the reaver, as the saron is the best nosegun at long ranges, and the vortek the worst. It's also far easier to increase the gap during a hoverduel than it is to decrease it.

I wouldn't say rotaries are the premier hoverdueling weapon. They are easily the premier ganking/rushing weapon, but their effective range is far too restricted to make them the go-to hoverdueling option.

How does having the worst hover, weakest nosegun, and middle-ground hitbox make it OP? The scythe outclasses it in accuracy, damage, and hitbox, and the reaver outclasses it in maneuverability and DPS.

This would have been the way to answer in the first place. As far as range degradation -- they are the same.

They both degrade from max to min damage over 100 meters with the mustang being 15% longer (30 meters) at the beginning of the curve, throughout the curve, and at the end of the curve and quite linear in this with respect to the saron. The damage degradation is exactly 20% in both cases. Hence there was no fuss about that because it isn't true and range (15% advantage) still matters. That is not, to say that the Saron is NOT way better than the Mustang -- the Saron could very well be better than the Mustang for other reasons -- just not the ones you listed and range is still a factor.

So my question is -- your statement -- how is the scythe harder to hit? Is it just a factor of frontal hitbox size? Is it actually smaller? Or is it wider but thinner? Is the vertical thrust that much better? Yaw/Pitch/Roll? Etc. I don't know which ESF is more maneuverable or in what ways and I am asking you to clarify and define your statement than Scythes are OP and that they are "harder to hit" seeing as you have tons of experience with it.

Also I did not say the Reaver has 20% more health -- I infact specified that a smaller hitbox would make a reaver harder to hit practically increasing it's survivability by the same amount it's size was reduced. You obviously agree with that as you suggested the hitbox size reduction to make the reaver as good as the Scythe. And I am asking why your opinion of the starting guns has anything to do with overall combat efficacy.

I am not saying research and testing is a fallacy. I am saying that I couldn't properly research and test it. I don't know enough about the intricacies of ESF piloting to make any sort of fair assessment. I would have to be an ESF pilot with a lot of experience to do so. I would furthermore be unable to determine who was my approximate skill level. Skill is an impossible to determine trait where the best you can do is figure out a ballpark and only do so when you have a ton of experience in the subject at hand. Whereas you are a pilot with a lot of experience with both the Scythe and Reaver and can determine all of the above. I respect your opinion and your experience hence I am asking why you think the way you do.

No one questioned that the higher muzzle velocity on the Saron was a point in it's favor.

Finally -- many things are impossible to pin down. The existence of God for example. Not provable or disprovable. And you won't see "because God says so" as a point of evidence in any scientific study. Which is essentially what you are asking as you choose something that cannot be completely and accurately measured (skill) and can only be ballparked and is then only definable relative to other people. However, the skill ceiling of equipment (what they can and cant do no matter how skill is applied) is the one constant we have. So assuming tests are made with people who operate around the skill ceiling of something (in this case ESFs) we can get some practical data and opinions on Reaver vs Scythe. However, since I am not at the skill ceiling of ESFs I would be unable to do so. Since I am in the middle somewhere (if that) it would be impossible for me to even ballpark guess who is around my ability. Much less figure out if in any given set of matches I did with any person the results were because {they were my skill level but the equipment was different} or {they were not my skill level and as such the equipment could not be properly tested}

I like to have the best possible data and experience to go with rationale before I form opinions. Were I at your level I would probably do 20 1v1s in both vehicles to get more data.

You have the wealth of experience and you operate at the skill ceiling which is the only hard point we can use to make any sort of practical comparisons. Hence people like me, who are interested in both air game and good game balance but lack the ability to form fair unbiased opinions due to our circumstances, rely on you to explain why you think the way you do.

EDIT note: This applies to how the mossie works in as well. Where do they fall relatively?

If we're talking about hitboxes... someone else already did the research (note using models, not hitboxes):





So the Scythe is smallest from the front and side, but largest from the top.
The Mosquito is the smallest from the top and middling everywhere else.
And the Reaver... well... at least it's not the largest from every direction!

That's helpful data. The scythe is the smallest and largest from certain angles. Mostly smallest. Good to know. Question - you said the research was done with models. Do the hitboxes match the models exactly or no?

I would, for one, feel it is safe to assume that the hitboxes match the models and as such we could say that the Scythe has less surface area to shoot at which is a point in its favor.

v-thrust speed up/down with hover slot:

reaver
145
71

mossie
121
69

scythe
125
66

need to talk about the stop and reverse manoeuver when your nmy is in the back where reaver is the best too?
need to talk about the momentum between up/down v-thrust swithching where reaver is faster too?

esf are close balanced, just need speed and afterburner to have fun instead of actual "kill a target then got killed by his friends" if you are not an ******* light assault jumper tryhard.
the real pb of esf is they are useless in heavey fight vs ground cause of multi nerf they got (crazy slow, no afterburner, so much flake/lock, oneshot by lib/tank..) and crazy render distance on soldiers (300meter who become 30 meter in heavy fight when they saw you at 1000 meter..)

The actual size of the hitbox isn't the only thing to consider. The reaver is the easiest one to hit from any angle(though the mossie is arguably worse from the top). The scythe might have the most surface area from the top, but it is also the hardest to get a clean bead on when dogfighting or reversing above because of the gaps. The middle is a short area, and the edges are very thin.

The scythe literally has the best hitbox for A2A from all angles.

Is this data true? Where did you get it? Does the Reaver really have the best vertical thrust? Cite sources please?

Yes it does, always has. I've always thought this though of the 3 esfs

Reaver-Most Durable, Best vertical thrust, best for dogfighting

Mosquito- Fastest, best rocket pods for A2G, Best nose gun for general A2A

Scythe- Best hover mode/maneuverability, everything else is outperformed by the reaver/mossie

Fun fact: a stock mosquito has a roughly equal top speed to a scythe with racer 3 airframe

Shouldn't this be calculated with the ESF's landing gear retracted? Not that I think it would change the overall results, but just for the sake of having accurate statistics for an airborne ESF.

From the testing ive done the visual model matches the hitbox perfectly, only exception is guns or secondary weapons/fuel pods which dont count as hit box.

If the reaver was in hover mode it would be even higher as the wings flip vertically making the hitbox even bigger.

Scythe wins roughly 9.9/10 with 2 equal roughly equal skilled pilots.

Even from the top id say reaver is the worst because most of the mass is concentrated in one huge spot where the scythe has 1 medium section and 4 small parts

All ESFs have the same amount of health and the same resistances.

The mossie has the lowest DPS noseguns and worse muzzle velocities than the scythe noseguns.

The scythe doesn't have the best hover mode or maneuverability. It's maneuverability is easily outclassed by the reaver because of it's powerful hover and AB. The scythe is also not outperformed in hoverduels, that is where it shines.

A stock mossie has a cruising speed of about 220, which the scythe with racer 3 has a cruising speed of about 235. I don't think I would say that is "roughly equal," or even a "fun fact" for that matter.

By dmg over range decline i meamt the minimum damage, the saron has about the same dps as the mustang at their minimum damage ranges, the scythe has 184, and the reaver has 200 if i remember correctly that's 83% for the saron and 80% for the mustang.

Soooo, mustang advantage is a dps of 7% (ish) more, but only 2% more dps at min dmg rangeand 15% more maximum dmg range. The saron has 6% more velocity, 17% quicker reload, and no bullet drop. So all in all the noseguns are about equal.

In my opinion the reload speed of the saron negates the dps of the mustang, and velocity of the saron helps more than the small amount of range the mustang has over it which is lessened with range anyway.

But a 10% reduction in hitbox im asking for should help balance the reaver out more.

In a scythd v reaver 1v1 scythe wins 95% of the time pilots being equal.

Scythe vs mossi id say is about 85% scythe, pilots being equal.

Mossi is just really meh reaver is bad and scythe is really pushing op.

Stock mossi gets more than 220, i believe its about 230/240 but cant remember exactly. The reaver does like 216 so there is no way mossi only goes 220.

Sure, they all go faster when you tip your nose down a bit and hold ascend.

Three changes I would do to the ESFs:

1. Switch the way Dual Photon and Breaker Rockets deal damage. VS is infringing on NC's trait of high alpha damage by firing two rockets at a time.
2. Change the way afterburners work, when applied they only cause the ESF to move forward, regardless of the engine's orientation.
3. Change the hitboxes to be the same across the board.

This post made by an idiot ,go take scythe and tell us how long you could win with that superior 1mm less frontal coverage.
everyone knows worst esf from 3 faction is scythe and you want that to buff already outperforming rever and mossie ?
Not sure are you really that dumb and total noob in game or just troling.
The changes that needs to be done .
1.all the 3 faction esf should have thesame maneuverability ,top speed , vertical thrust and max afterburner speed , it's just ridiculous how freaking easy to fly reaver compared to scythe .
2.scythe lol pods should act like other 2 empires .
3.scythe lol pods should not obscure thermal vision when firing them, like tr and nc.

@ Developers. The only way to balance games is around the top 1%. That's how every other game does it. That being said, most if not every person in this thread is not part of the 1% of top pilots. Therefore, instead of listening to these horrible suggestions, you should create a group of 20-30 top pilots from every server and have them give their take on each aircraft in the form of strengths/weaknesses.

Keep in mind there is a lot more to a2a than hover duels. Points to think about.

1. How well does the ESF perform when being engaged from behind?
2. How well does the ESF when being engaged by multiple targets?
2a. How well does the ESF perform when being engaged by multiple targets that are in different directions?
3. Which ESF would you pick for large group fighting with noseguns?
4. Which ESF do you feel most confident in escaping a bad situation?
5. etc, etc, etc.

As one of the top 1%, I find reasons I like each ESF. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses.

A couple basic points I've come to notice:

VS
1. Scythe Saron + front profile allows best dueling advantage. But, duels are the exception, not the rule on live.
2. I like the scythe least when being engaged from behind of all 3 ESFs.

TR
1. A mossie that is hover dodging offers infinitely more survivability then the other 2 ESFs.
2. The mossie is arguably the best ESF to have when being engaged from behind.
3. Mossie is the worst close up fighting ESF

NC
1. NC ESF weapons are generally best in their slot due to DPS and being able to be used for multiple roles.
2. AH Best AI nosegun, Vortek is the best rotary, Mustang is arguably the best default, Kestrel is equivalent to the needler with a faster reload and bigger clip size
3. Reaver thrust advantage allows it to escape ganks easier than scythes. By the same token, allows it to gank easier than the other ESFs.

A couple of changes I would suggest.

TR and VS weapons should be inverses of each other. One has bigger clip and slower reload. Other has smaller clip and faster reload. DPS should be identical.

VS
Increase front profile of scythe, give it better acceleration thrust, reduce top profile, reduce projectile velocity to be equivalent to other ESFs. Rotary needs 8% more dps.

TR
Reduce reload speed on all weapons by .2 seconds. Rotary needs 7% more dps. Needs slighty more Vthrust

NC
AH is slightly too good at a2a. Could use another nerf there. Could use a slight front profile reduction and a slight top profile reduction. Vortek needs 200 more rounds at maximum upgrade. 467 to 667.

<GrenadeSharkVS, GrenadeSharked, aGrenadeSharke, Grenadeshark
VS 15k Kills as ESF
NC 8k Kills as ESF
TR 11k Kills as ESF

Either way, none of these changes should happen without a consensus among top pilots. There are already websites you can use to gather this data. Just make sure the right questions are asked. Get the top pilots together to create the questions and then they answer them based on their arguments with both opinions and statistical data.

Any other balancing is just guessing. This game has the same problem most games do. There are no top players in the development team. Therefore the balancing has to be based on statistics and top player feedback.