[Suggestion] Add dumbfire mode to phoenix

The ONLY reason that is has low DPS is because you have to actually guide the rocket to the target. Everyone keeps forgetting that ALL vehicles have a -195% damage resistance modifier to the Phoenix. If you add on the dumbfire ability, All vehicles will have to have their resistances buffed for it and it would take you even longer to kill/destroy with the Phoenix.

I would like that It's nice to see people suggesting a few positive changes to weapons whose counterparts are being buffed. The Striker definitely deserves the buff, but I never thought anyone would think about the Lancer.

Its kind of hard not to. When you only have 3 factions to play with, you always like to create a different character to play with the other weapons. I do it mostly to test other weapons that people claim to be OP, UP, or when comparing weapons. Its the best way to get an actual definitive discussion about it. I would really like to see the Lancer's fully charged damage increased a little bit as well as the charging speed by like a half second to a second. All Rocket Launchers should have a max range of 300m if that is the Phoenix's cut off range, it should be for the others to be fair.

No it has low DPS even with a short flight time, due to the damage per rocket and the reload. Certainly it is much better at close range than with a 300m flight, but it is still low compared to the other ESRL.



So at 30-40m flight length the Phoenix has lower DPS than the Striker (current) and Lancer (due to the way the Pheonix works you'll be struggling hit anything much under that and it will have likely already killed you even if you can - which is yet another HUGE drawback of the Pheonix, of course).

And at 290m flight length the Pheonix has much, MUCH lower DPS than the Striker (current) and Lancer.



I suspect a dumbfire mode might (maybe) need a slightly longer reload though, although I've not done the numbers to be sure (and with the Pheonix the damage modifiers are all over the place so a reload for one vehicle or infantry might not be ok for another vehicle).





Also the Pheonixes damage resistance is NOT -195% across the board it is:

As you can see this very generally puts the Pheonix in the range of dumbfire launchers (if it could dumbfire) - the resistances are higher than dumbfire launchers, but the rocket damage is lower than dumbfire launchers.

But the one thing you are failing to address is the fact that you have 1 missile that you can actually control where it goes. With the striker, you are theorizing that ALL missiles will hit the intended target. No one arguing against this overhaul is mentioning that:
1: we have to remain out in the open at all times when firing the RL.
2: we are the only ones that have to maintain a lock on.
3: in its current state, a leaf can cause you to loose the lock on and all the missiles will fly off into oblivion.
4: if a flare is used, all 5 of our rockets are lost, not just one.

you can theorize all you want about numbers on paper of what it is "SUPPOSED" to do, but when you actually use the RL, it just isn't worth it.

My apologies about the percentage numbers. Its horrible to imagine that even with the correct resistance numbers, the Phoenix still comes out on top of others.

It doesn't, do the maths.

And the Pheonix has:

1) the biggest hit box of any missle by a mile (it is very hard to fire it from cover because of this comparatively).
2) can be SHOT DOWN! (nothing else can)
3) leaves you stood up and AFK for the duration of using it.
4) has the lowest DPS of any ESRL (no matter the range)
5) has no dumbfire.
6) only has an effective range of ~290m as the crow flies - much less if you have to bend its flight path into the target.
7) has an actual minimum range and an effective minimum range.
8) has no real AA use.

Now all of that is fine if it's balanced, but the new Striker is likely to be a do everything ESRL where as the Pheonix will remain the most limited and situational.

Far better overhaul would be allowing guidance when crouched & make rocket dumbfire or explode when reaching maximum range, instead of just disappearing.

Using this data, I am doing the maths:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eRswI1CZRFKnF-dT4_w/edit?pli=1#gid=1609408229

Hitting any MBT from behind:

Phoenix: |((-167 / 100) - 1) * ((30 / 100) - 1)| * 750 = 1401.75 (for one rocket)
Striker: |((-50 / 100) - 1) * ((30 / 100) - 1)| * 335 = 351.75 (for one rocket)

So as I said, you are Theorizing that ALL rockets will hit from the Striker, but they don't. So IF, and for papers sake, IF all 5 rockets hit, then yes, we would do a WHOPPING 100 more damage. But like I said, after the massive nerf to the Striker, all 5 rockets never hit.

1. your 1 and 2 statements are the same argument, but with server lag, its damn near impossible to shoot down a phoenix missile.
2. you are still behind cover or in a spawn room. I've seen it and have done it.
3. ^^ Points to the math
4. Its Camera guided for christ's sake. The only way you'll miss is if the target moved out of range when you were reloading, or you don't know how to control it.
5. Oh I'm sorry. You are complaining about having to hit something from 300m out? The Striker doesn't even lock on to targets unless they are within 150m. Please cry me a river while I get my violin.
6. So does the striker, except if we lose lock on, our effective range is null and void.
7. I will give you that one. Your AA is shot with that RL and that needs to be fixed. Maybe give it a toggle switch that allows the launcher to swap to lock on for air?

The Striker needs this overhaul. Even still, the new Striker will not be a lock on, it will be a pure dumbfire. We will have to have the skill to make sure the missles get within range of aircraft for them to proximity lock. Everything else will be straight up dumbfire.

All I see here is:
Higby: "TR getting a change they finally needed"
NC: "Higby pls we need buffs cuz AV weapons not good enough pls higby"

Why?
Giving it a scope would make it easier to do damage from beyond render range, something the lancer doesn't need.

Consider the lack of zoom scope a balancing metric to keep the lancer in check.

The absence of scope doesn't stop lancer from shooting things outside of render range, so giving it scope to make aiming at render range easier and getting the range down to infantry render range would be a good idea to keep the lancer in check. Way better than current system.

Me, i would prefer just getting the renderrange increased, but i'm not sure it can happen for lancer specifically unless it's made into some kind of super-mana-turret, and that's immobile, and that's bad.

This is exactly what I mean!

When you cherry pick the very best % resistance difference and show it at effectively 0m (i.e. as if the Pheonix actually had a proper dumbfire mode) it STILL (even then) has lower DPS.

I've honestly no idea how you can claim the Pheonix "doesn't" have the lowest DPS when it clearly, patently and unequivocally does!

(I'm not saying it shouldn't have lower DPS, but I am saying it most definately does and it is a signficant drawback)

Only someone with little experience of the Pheonix would say that, the large hit box certainly does help with people shooting it down, but far beyond that it limits where you can shoot from with it. It is much, much easier to get any other rocket out of a door, past a roof or through a window than the Pheonix.

Then seperately to that there is that it can be shot down, with a high RoF weapon it is fairly trival to do so. You can even manage it with a pistol! Certainly server lag can cause issues, but broadly the Pheonix is now visable all the time, except in situations so laggy that a Pheonix is likely to be the least of your worries.

Silly me! I completely forgot that a Pheonix came with its own portable Spawn Room!

In reality again this is something only said by someone with little experience of the Phoenix (I agree that Pheonixes are fired from spawn rooms a lot, but this is largely because this is by far the most sensible place TO use them from).

Firstly point 1) comes into play - that with its massive hitbox you cannot just fire it out of any window/door/spawn shield from any position because it clips edges (or people) and explodes.

Secondly you can't just fire the Pheonix out of "cover", the Pheonix can be steered and bent onto a target, however you still need a firing angle due to the speed, limited range and fixed minimum turning circle of the Pheonix.
So the reality it usually you cannot fire from behind cover so much as fire from along cover - this almost always leaves firing angles open for snipers and well as stuff like Air and Vehicles.

The idea that it is possible to find a 100% safe (or even 50% safe) place to fire a Pheonix from most of the time is frankly ridiculous, most of the time you find the safest position you can hit the target from and gamble there is no sniper/stalker/ESF/Lib that has spotted you - this is why the Pheonix isn't much used by the NC, because without the "right" cover you're terrible vulnerable.

Which as we've seen above even when you cherry pick the most favourable possible situation for the Pheonix still leaves it doing LESS DPS THAT THE STRIKER!

Again this comment can only come from someone with little experience with the Pheonix.

The idea of dumbfire doesn't come from missing (although the Pheonix is actually reasonable hard to hit with at very close range due to the camera change and initial acceleration boost, certainly against a non-stationary target - again something any experience user would know) it comes from that by the time you've moved out, fired, camera moved to rocket view, lined up, E-d out, cameras come back to 1st person and tried to move back into cover again YOU WILL BE DEAD..... because you just stood there like a plank for a few seconds, more than long enough for return fire to kill you!

Where as dumbfire allows you to move out, fire and move straight back into cover!

Er.... I think you need to check your Striker lock-on facts too!

On top of that a Striker will still hit a way past that, the Pheonix just won't, it is not even like you could line it up for when the camera guidence ends, as the Pheonix basically just disapears.

Again this is why the effective range isn't actually 300m, but rather ~290m because the Phoenix seems to dispear at about 295m on the range viewer and you'll almost always use at least 5m of flight just aiming it even in the straightest of shots.

Although it is not the Striker 2.0 that is the issue, it's the Pheonix vs the Striker 3.0, potentially.

Again though the Striker 3.0 will have dumbfire and the coyote aquire/require mechanic.

I'm not arguing the Pheonix needs dumbfire against the Striker 2.0 (it doesn't - although I argued it did against the Striker 1.0 - and I still believe it did), but against the Striker 3.0 which is going to be a VERY different beast!

And as such I think the case for the Pheonix to get dumbfire is reopened given all the above and below.

Interesting idea.

But that is basically what I am saying reguards the Striker 3.0.

It is going to be a VERY flexible ESRL, and the Pheonix is likely to be left behind by it (the Lancer may need buff al la scopes as you mentioned too).

I wouldn't argue the Pheonix would need dumbfire and an AA mode as that would be far, far too much, but dumbfire OR an AA mode might very well be needed (of course the Air % resistance would need to be nerfed massively for any AA mode).

I agree it does, my point is that against the Striker 3.0 the Pheonix (and to a lesser degree Lancer) is likely to need changes too.

If they add dumbfire to the striker they better nerf its total damage per "burst". All those shots per lock, dumbfired do more damage than a decimator. NO ONE will use anything else and for GOD SAKE THE SPAM of Explosions!! Think i will be playing my TR more if this goes live in the OP fashion it sounds.

And you are making the exact same assumption, about the Phoenix that all rockets hit the target. In fact you have to make the assumption that all 5 rockets or the single Phoenix will hit that is how we determine MAX damage potential. Min damage would be none of the rockets hit and reality is somewhere in the middle. Even if on average only 3 Striker rockets 67% (1053 damage), the same can be said of the Phoenix on average about 67% hit their target (938 damage) and these numbers are just straight up damage potential at 67% accuracy, if we looked at the DPS the difference would be even greater in favor of the Striker.

I agree the Striker needs a rework, many of us have been advocating this for a long time now. The striker will NOT be a PURE dumb fire, it will also have homing capabilities on Air craft, while you would like to Poo Poo this characteristic it will be an amazing ability, especially in comparison to the Phoenix, which is atrocious for AA, in fact if it had a dumb fire I would use it more in that mode for AA then camera guided.

And in dumbfire mode it should one-shot rocket primary for directives purposes.

This is a common mistake. You can crouch while firing the Phoenix, and stay crouched. Don't use the toggle key (default 'C') use the other one (default 'CTRL'). You will remain crouched until you let up the key.

Just wanted to dispel that.

As to the original suggestion. No; the Phoenix does not need a dumbfire mode. If you need a dumbfire launcher, go to a terminal and get one; if you pulled the wrong loadout for the situation, or the situation changed and you couldn't adapt - too bad.

The whole point of different loadouts and options is to give you the ability to do one thing well, at some cost. In this case, you get the ability to hit vehicles that are out of sight; which no other faction can do (unless they are like UBGL gods or very lucky with AV grenades). Your trade off is the disadvantage of being stationary, and not having dumbfire. Just the same as if you pulled a Shrike, you now cannot shoot vehicles behind cover, but you can shoot and duck away, and you can fire quick hip shots.

If the phoenix was good at everything (except AA), no one would pull a Deci or a Shrike, as they would have no uses.

You can always learn something new, that's going to be pretty helpful!

(although I bet they nerf it next patch now)

That may well be the case with the Striker 3.0.

I do not consider hitting a vehicle that is behind cover to be a big enough advantage to counter balance the Phoenix's drawbacks, for a few reasons. #1 If the vehicle is behind cover, then that means the driver or occupants are also behind cover and can repair their vehicle, the DPS of the Phoenix is so bad that all but a standard repair tool will easily our repair the damage the phoenix can do. #2 The Phoenix is only usable around spawn rooms, because it is so incredibly situational, and know one in their right mind would consider using it in any other situation. #3 because of the narrow field of view offered by the Phoenix, you do not get the same on the fly focus fire effect that is prevalent in all other launchers.

The camera mode is a novelty at best, the drawbacks are too severe to make the Phoenix useful in most situations. The same can not be said for the Lancer or the Striker 3.0, both of these weapons are very versatile, sure they can not hit vehicles from behind cover, but as I mentioned that is a novelty at best and generally not that useful, you would be better off grabbing your C4 and just flying over the the vehicle parked behind cover and blow it up that way, god knows it would be quicker.

Both the Lancer and Striker 3.0 are capable weapons vs Air and ground vehicles, they are also both versatile & useful indoors and in general while on the move, the same can not be said of the Phoenix. If I accidentally grabbed the Lancer or Striker at a sunderer in the field, or while I dropped in or while inside a base, I wouldn't care because they would still be useful. The Phoenix on the other hand would be next to worthless, because it has such a narrow scope of usefulness.

The point is the Camera mode is unique, but at the end of the day it is a novelty and is not that practical, while both the lancer and Phoenix are very versatile and useful in many situations and locations. Giving the Phoenix a true dumb fire mode would bring it to a similar level of the Lancer and Striker and make it more versatile and it might allow the NC to utilize it in more situations, it would not replace the other NS rocket launchers any more then the Lancer and Striker do and will.

I wish we could fire, exit the camera, and re-enter it by ADS and hitting "E" again.

That would make it SO much fun.

I want to be able to dumbfire for when I suddenly find myself face-to-face with an enemy max suit.

I'm perfectly fine with the missile dropping to the dirt like it does, just so long as I don't have to stand there for the 0.3ish seconds delay before I can exit the missile.
That window is a death sentence, and I would like to be able to defend myself a little better when an armored slaughter machine suddenly shows up.

You cannot hear anything going on around you when you're piloting the missile, so it's actually not unlikely that you can suddenly find a max or a harasser has closed in on you without any way for you to have heard it's approach.



Personally, I'd love to be able to dumbfire it, move around for just a split second, and then enter the missile by ADS and hitting "E" to re-enter the camera guidance.
The missiles drop like a stone, so you'd only have a tiny (about 0.5s) little window, but it would be immensely helpful for avoiding friendly fire in crowded areas.