Is my Reaver vs. Scythe analysis accurate?

I'm getting a little tired of trying to explain to pilots why the scythe has such a big advantage when dueling my reaver. They seem to think that it's a somewhat fair fight. I was going to use DPS and hitbox numbers and was wondering if this was accurate.

(From DasanFall Stats)
Vortek Rotary

DPS: 4000

Hailstorm Turbo Laser

DPS: 3286

(From the thread https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...nce-seems-really-good-right-now.133661/page-2)

Reaver hitbox:

Pixels: 10700

Scythe hitbox:

Pixels: 6100

So the reaver has a 21% higher DPS (4000-3286) / 3286
And the reaver has a 75% bigger hitbox (10700-6100) / 6100.

So I think we can equate DPS and hitbox numbers (which I think makes sense - If you're hitbox is 2x as big you should have 2x higher DPS to be equal right?)

So the conclusion would be, with two equally skilled pilots, the scythe would have a 54% advantage in duels (75% -21%)? I think this is correct but for some reason the numbers seem just a little iffy. Is it ok to compare these percantages like this? There obviously is a big advantage for the scythe but I was just trying to lock down the exact percent.

Nah, you're over exaggerating.

Yea, the Scythe does have an edge is hover-fights. But the Scythe can not be used as a hit and run ESF.

I don't really think that the Scythe needs a nerf.
Would only like to see the Reaver getting armour, for sacrificing the extra AB.

I'm just referring to duels. Of course not all ESF fights are like this but with some of the higher level pilots it seems like I face them 1v1 a lot.

-Teneth

a large portion of the disadvantage on your end would be all of the flak rounds i dump into you while you are dueling.

yeah the scythe is better in 1v1 duels, which scythe pilots seem to insist never happen on live

OP certainly does have some numbers in it

1v1 happen all the time in live servers.

Mainly because TTK times are pretty low on ESFs.

If there are 2 enemies, chances are 1 of them won't even notice me while I'm engaged in a duel with his friend and would start shooting at me, just when the fights ending.

You will notice a lot of 1v1 in swarms of enemy ESFS, in videos made by really good pilots.

Hm I've thought about it some more and I think there could be a flaw in equating DPS and hitbox percentages. In the extreme example, what if the scythe was as big as a house and the reaver was as big as a barn? The reaver would technically have a bigger hitbox but it wouldn't matter so much because both the scythe and the reaver could probably hit each other fairly well (since they're both huge). Thus giving the reaver a much higher DPS would make it unfair.

However, with the actual hitboxes they have, I think you can still agree having the smaller hitbox can help a lot. Thus it becomes a little subjective - is a 21% higher DPS worth a 75% bigger hitbox? I think that's probably no most of the time except if you have extremely good aim and can fully utilize the extra DPS. So does the scythe have a 54% advantage? Maybe not exactly but I still think it has a fairly good one all things considered. Interesting to analyze...

(Also I forgot to mention the hailstorm has a muzzle velocity of 600 m/s while the vortek has one of 650 m/s. This might be considered a small advantage for the vortek).

-Teneth

In regards to hitbox vs. aim, many individuals overlook CoF.

Cone of Fire will play a large part in the actual amount of bullets that will land out of certain ranges due to RNG.

When only ~10% (imaginary numbers here for examples) of the bullets that would hit a Reaver land in the areas they would miss a Scythe due to CoF, that is a fair DPS to Accuracy trade off if the damage is ~10% higher. When this scale is not balanced like so, the perceived issues with accuracy vs. hitbox become apparent. This said, not all hitboxes can be equal due to varying profiles, and not all player's accuracy are equal either. The necessary summed profile averages for hitboxes is highly debatable (and SOE may have already done the required testing, but I do doubt it personally) but would be one of the best judges for judging overall hitbox impact on gameplay.

Sidenote: Faster rate of fire, high mag, lower damaging stock noseguns will have a better damage distribution over time in relation to CoF due to less RNG affecting the spread, and Slower rate of fire, lower mag, higher damaging stock noseguns will have a worse damage distribution over time in relation to CoF due to more RNG affecting the spread. For an extreme example: A six shooter vs. a 200 round LMG, both have the same CoF and they are aiming at a small target that takes up 50% of the CoF. Average landed shots would be 3 and 100, where as the penalty for missing with the six shooter would be much higher then missing with the LMG. When RNG plays out (sure the LMG could only hit 43 shots when 5 of 6 landed from the other, or 2 shots vs 96 is more reasonable) the less laser like weapon system is more likely to suffer on average.

Lastly, the 50 mps velocity bonus on scythe noseguns may not seem like a major contributing factor in this scenerio, but it is. Slight decrease in lead times do help shots land on moving targets via faster bullet connection times, no matter how slightly perceived the increase is, it still is a combat advantage.

That is incorrect information, the Hailstorm has a Muzzle Velocity of 700 m/s while a Vortek and M18 Rotary have 650 m/s. The TR and NC have the same velocities on stock, rotary, and extended mag weapons; all the VS counterparts have +50 m/s compared to the others.

I can never hit anything with the vortek, I would trade the extra DPS for extra bullet speed.

You're forgetting better V thrust from the reaver. But yes, in most 1v1s, the scythe has the advantage (especially over longer ranges) however, get closer up, and suddenly the reaver's advantages come into play; the playing field isn't so tipped to one side now.

Hm you're correct, the hailstorm does have a +50 m/s. I was using some wiki site that was usually correct but got that one wrong.

With your CoF argument are you saying that there is an even greater advantage with the scythe hitbox because the RNG makes it a lot harder to be accurate with the vortek? Sorry was kind of hard trying to wrap my head around that one

-Teneth

Greater advantage on average yes related to RNG, by how much though is debatable. They are very similar in scale when it comes to RoF and Magazine size even though they vary, but still that relation holds true unless they are equal. You will always have benefits vs. detriments that can be seen when looking at something objectively, but it doesn't have to mean to bring the nerf hammer or buff it, its just an observation to be taken into account.

Ahhh.... At least you're sensible Teneth, and haven't started crying OP... (yet).
Scythe is not OP, magrider is "not" UP, Vannie is "not" UP, Lasher is "not" Up, Prowler is "balanced".

But seriously, Scythes do not TOTALLY dominate the sky, and are CONSIDERABLY more vulnerable to flak than any other vehicle in the game. If they did, we would see it constantly, and if this flak "problem" is ever improved or the Scythe, it may well be justifiable... Unbalanced.

Correction.
Flak detonates at e set distance from the centre of the model, and this is the same for all the ESFs.
Should be about 5 meters or so.

Lock-ons also only track this one single point.

Scythes not dominating the skies is barely an argument to be taken serious. We all know that most hardcore (and therefore better pilots) will be flying mossies and reavers over scythes due to the "fair play" or plain "challenge" factor. It's been proven several times how the scythe outclasses the other two esfs in 1vs1 dogfights. Two ace pilots, one of them in a scythe, will very likely win against mossy and reaver. When the same pilots swap ESFS, the scythe will win again and not due to pilot skill but due to integrated performance.

Also saron period.

lol

where do you get this information? because i know it isn't true for liberators and i am pretty sure i have detonated my skyguard flak rounds off of the end of tail of mosquitoes (well away from the center) as far as i can tell with my 1,701 vehicle kills in my skyguard flak follows the contours of all of the aircraft, and as for a minor correction the flak radius goes out to 8 meters with damage fall off starting at 6 meters.

my experiences so far tell me that the targets i am hitting with flak are most certainly not flying round spheres.

It's hearsay, but considering how they've done other systems it makes sense.
And I did specify that it was for ESFs. For libs and gals it would obviously be a different set of values.

Knowing how directional damage is done on ground vehicles is done, and how incredibly simple that code is (we tested it many times, and it makes sense form the perspective of keeping things as simple as possible due to scale), adopting other simple methods for other mechanics (such as lock-ons and flak) makes perfect sense.

Anyway, remember that they're exploding at a set distance, so if you were to make the system would you make it use some pre-set point or some complex calculation based off of the model, first finding out which part is the closest to the flak shot and then make sure it detonates at the right distance from this variable? Or just use the same point and make it so every time a flak shot enters the sphere around this point it will detonate?
Granted, I've not seen the game code and this is mostly a theory (not am I a programmer), but can you think of a simpler solution that would work reliably?