Did they go to far? The BTAS and Batman Beyond mythos.

Discussion in 'Joker’s Funhouse (Off Topic)' started by Has2besaid, Aug 17, 2014.

  1. Has2besaid Committed Player

    Sup guys,
    This was supposed to be a another one of my Who did it better thread but there is a little back story that we have to go through first and which begs the question "Did they go to far?" Lets review

    Every wonder what really happened between Batman and Dick Grayson in Season 4 of Batman the animated series? What caused Dick Grayson to turn his back on Bruce and Barbara, give up the mantle of Robin, leave Gotham, and become Nightwing in the DCA?. Well the episode that sorta explained it was recently elaborated on the Batman Beyond comic and I don't know how I feel about it. But I'm jumping ahead. In the beginning it was Bruce, Dick, and Barbara, and all seemed good for three seasons.
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    Then we jumped to season 4 where a few years had passed and everything changed.



    Indeed, in the BTAS direct to video episode with Mr. Freeze called Sub Zero. They were in a good place. Gordon liked Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon as a couple and Dick seemed to be preparing to marry Barbara as soon as he finished College.

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    Then in the episode "Old Wounds" the tension between Bruce and Dick are revealed. Indeed, after realizing just how ugly Batman's crime fighting techniques can be at times, as he watches Batman manhandle a thug in front of his wife and kid, Dick decides he's had enough and decides to leave the crime fighter lifestyle and lead a "normal" life with Barbara as soon as he finishes college. He tries to explain his frustration to Barbara (note neither one knows the others identity) but can't and walks out frustrated. Barbara goes to Bruce to express her concern for Dick, and Bruce lets the bat and the bird out of the bag. Later, when Dick approaches Bruce to submit his resignation Batman and Batgirl reveal that Barbara is secretly Batgirl, something Bruce knew a long time ago but kept to himself, that Bruce has told her that he is secretly Robin, and that he has invited her to work with them in the cave.
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    Believing that this is just Bruce's way of manipulating him so that he won't quit being Robin, Dick lashes out punching Batman, quitting the role of Robin, and leaving Bruce and Barbara to their own affairs for several years.
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    Then we jumped to season 4 and everything changed. Bruce and Barbara's costumes became much darker (matching?) and she had been spending a lot of one on one time with Bruce. Indeed, while DIck was a way it was just Barbara and Bruce protecting Gotham. Then, when Dick finally returns in a significant way, he is clearly not on good terms with either of them and advises them that he is back in Gotham as a solo player.



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    When Nightwing returned it truly seemed as though the Bat-Family was just that and primarily consisted of Batman (Dad), Batgirl (Mom) and Robin (the child), however after a while he put aside his grievances and
    made peace with Batman.
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    With a promo like that I guess it was hinted at , bothhere and in the direct to video feature Mystery of the Batwoman, where Tim Drake teases Bruce about how Barbara misses him and Barbara confirms it. But even then as a viewer I was simply like...huh, what's that all about and quickly forgot it to focus on the main story.
    Then the comics got a hold of the mythos and now this just happened. In the latest issue of Batman Beyond Terry asks for info on what type of man Bruce Wayne truly is, and Barbara Gordon tells him. she begins by talking about her relationship with Dick some time after season 4.

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    Then we learn the truth about what was going on while Dick Grayson was away. The secret (I'll refrain from using words as shameful or horrible until later) Barbara and Bruce had been had been keeping from Dick...

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    So, it seems as though once again, Bruce forgets to pack condoms (I'm looing at you Damien) in the utility belt and got Barbara pregnant. Okay. I get it. I saw the movie Watchman. The heat of the night, the adrenaline ruch, etc.. But here is where I feel the writer went off the rails. First. Bruce decides (without Barbara knowing) that he is going to break the news to Dick first. I don't care about this part because IMO the resulting pain would have ben the same regardless of who told him first. But observe Barbara's response to the situation.
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    Now this is to be continued however, where as Dick's reaction everyone would have seen coming from miles away Barbara's was unbelievable. it seems as though Barbara may have gone out and fought crime with the intention of having a miscarriage. After all, although we learn that Barbara remarries in Batman Beyond, we do not see any children in her household.

    At least its not a one night stand for as per Batman Beyond, Bruce did seem to have a relationship with Barbara, but to think she would purposely abort her child in this fashion to keep both men happy seems absurd to me. At least Talia pretended to lose Damien and put him up for adoption (old continuity) raised him in secret (new continuity) I don't read Batgirl but I did not see her as capable of something like this.


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    So I ask you Batfans, did they go to far? I think they did, and I am one who thinks the animated series ought to be made canon. I don't even have a problem with Barbara choosing Bruce over Dick Grayson. She has always admired him and worked closer with Bruce than she ever did with Dick. But the whole pregnancy and self abortion stuff is way over the line for me. What do you think?
  2. Sodam Yat Dedicated Player

    Man, theres reading between the lines, and then theres this. That comic, in no way shape or form, shows that shes "intentionally trying to miscarry the baby". Where in gods name did you get this from?

    Women who want to do that dont go fighting crime, that aint exactly the best way to do it and im sure as hell not gonna list any. Barbara is a person who instinctively stands up for the weak, who fights for the innocent, just like Bruce, just like Dick, just like Tim, just like Terry. I dont even think I wanna know how you came to that conclusion but heres what Actually happened. Barabara became Batgirl, Barbara trained for years, Barbara saw someone getting mugged at gun point, Barbara reacted as her training taught her to, The end.

    Did they go too far? No, not yet. And asking that question before you get to see the aftermath of her actions is premature. The Batfamily have always fought for others with no regard to their own safety, always has been and always will be like that. And DC has never "shy'd away" from realistic consequences. But theyve also never shy'd away from realistic reactions either, so id say Barbara is going to be devistated by this and this is most likely why, in the BTAS universe, she gave up being Batgirl.

    Right now though? All of its speculation, including your question. Wait till the next issue before asking if they went too far. And please, dont try to "read between the lines" on every single page, such an action has made this thread redundant already.
    • Like x 1
  3. SuperSoldier Devoted Player

    I'm just going by what you posted but this storyline seems lame, simply because of the authoritative relationship that Bruce has with his "partners." There's a reason why teacher/students relationships no matter the ages, or even if they are no longer in the same class are frowned upon. It has to do with an unhealthy imbalance of power in the relationship. Plus its super creepy.

    Regardless if the character put herself in harm's way on purpose or not, it seems the writer did. You can't really blame someone for reading between the lines because that's what comics are all about. If anything, you can blame the writer(s) for not being specific or intentionally vague. And are we sure he's the father? In that scene when she tells him she's 7 weeks pregnant, the great detective seems to forget math. Perhaps, he's covering for someone else... I'm looking at you Alfred!
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    Now I have to look up if Professor X has ever made some X-babies with his students or if Wolverine and Jubilee ever had a love child.
    • Like x 1
  4. HealerHollidae New Player



    well Bruce also isn't the type to act so rashly and un-calculated. I guess this just isn't an appropriate guise of the characters.
  5. Sodam Yat Dedicated Player



    Well first off, if you're going to reply to me then please hit the "Reply" button at the end of my post to link it to yours. If i hadnt been bored and checked this page again i never would have known your post existed.

    Secondly, blame the writers for intentionally being vague? Thats all part of good storytelling in comicbooks. If theres a storyline going on thats meant to be 10 issues long you dont give all the info away in the first issue. THATS when you blame the writers. And as far as "comicbooks being made to be read between the lines", thats just false. Reading between the lines is attributed to stories that have deeper spiritual, religious or ideologic meaning to them, and a very minor amount of comicbooks are written this way. Most comics tell a basic story, hate, love, greed, anguish, betrayal, but theres no undertones to detect, no secret meaning of why (Mr X) used his left hand rather than his right.

    The OP was claiming that the writer intentionally portrayed Barbara as forcing herself to miscarry, not only did i see nothing of that whatsoever from the screens, but i cant imagine how he/she would unless they were trying to find a deeper meaning where there was none. Barbara saw a robbery, Barbara reacted as her training taught her to, thats all there is to it. Considering the aftermath hasnt even been released yet, theres not 1 person who can say 100% yes or 100% no to their question. You cant judge a book by 1 chapter just like you cant judge this comic due to it being unfinished.
  6. Sodam Yat Dedicated Player



    I dont get what you mean? How was he acting differently?
    Also are you referring to the BTAS Bruce or the Comicbook Bruce? Because although I still think that BTAS is as close as any medium has ever gotten to the Comicbook Batman, theres still some pretty major differences.
  7. HealerHollidae New Player



    the comic book one here in the second half of this post. I mean at what point has batman ever gone out of his way to do something so stupid. Surely he would've known Dick wouldn't take his squealing sitting down and just roll over.
    The worlds "greatest detective" just outed their identities with out a second thought regardless of what his sidekick was going to think. Knowing they were in a relationship. None of that even adds up to the man glorified by millions of people as the all mighty intellect. Considering at this point Robin is family so, the man that lost his only family would turn his back?

    doesn't seem like the bats we know.
  8. Has2besaid Committed Player

    You make some good points and observations and I may indeed be premature or overly cynical with my belief as to what those panels mean but if as you suspect and she isn't deliberately trying to lose the baby that is one heck of a deus ex machina. The very traits that you correctly mention are traits of the bat family, are the reasons I couldn't imagine her placing herself in harms way knowing she was seven weeks pregnant. It's kinda like in the old wounds episode. As such, just as the The issue of whether Bruce was really trying to manipulate Dick or told Barbara because he could see that she was try concerned was never solved I think they may leave it up to the readers interpretation of the character, if the child is truly lost. But tell me, do you think they should have made Bruce get her pregnant in the first place? I think old wounds wrapped up Bruce and Dicks tensions quite nicely. To add this complex issue to keep the feud going seems excessive.
  9. Sodam Yat Dedicated Player



    I feel like maybe the whole BTAS / Comicbook Batman thing is getting a little confused here. You get that the Comicbook the OP is talking about is one based on the Animated Series Universe and not based on the Traditional Comicbook Batman ye? This isnt the Terry McGinnis from the current Futures End comic storyline, this is a comicbook series thats continuing the Batman Beyond TV Show storyline. It has nothing to do with the New 52 or the Batman from Pre 52 at all.
  10. HealerHollidae New Player



    yeah I know
  11. TrueOlympus New Player

    Wait WTF? Batman was in a relationship with Babara? Yes they went to far..... This is BS. Changed my whole freaking view of that storyline(show)
  12. Sodam Yat Dedicated Player


    Ok so if you know then thatll make this easier to explain.

    Bruce Timms Batmans main difference from the comicbook one, and it was an intentional one too, was that his Batman makes a lot more mistakes. More mistakes = more suspense & more suspense = better television, its why he was the master of 90s animated tv. Ppl always say they can "relate" more to Batman because hes human, thus hes just as fallible as us. He can bleed, he can die but most importantly, he can make mistakes. Hell during the Death of the Family story it was a huge mistake for Bruce to fool himself into believing the Joker didnt enter the Batcave, and an even bigger one for him to hide it from the Batfamily.

    Anyway, as most ppl know, you dont always "plan" to have a baby. Most high-end "protection" is only about 95% effective as it is. So this is where you've completely lost me unless you expected Bruce to invent a Bat-Protection measure. How exactly did he miscalculate a situation he had no control over?
  13. TheDark Devoted Player

    I knew it was all about the D. Bruce is just more of a man than Dick. Lol.

    I don't think they went too far. I like for my shows to grow up in a way and not always have child friendly issues (this different comic book though. Not the actual show) The animated series season 1 to 3 showed Bruce and Dick to be on good terms. I'm glad season 4 made that switch at the time. Stories like this just fill in some of those hints we got from mystery of the batwoman and batman beyond.
  14. Crimson Jonni New Player

    God dammit batman. Thats gotta sting, having your former mentor get your girlfriend pregnant. I felt that and i've not even been in a situation like that
  15. Spector Knight New Player

    The big hole here obviously is that the kid isn't dead. He/she might well be revealed to be an existing character, or, if the writers decide to alter continuity, even Terry McGinnis himself.

    In the past it was revealed that Bruce is Terry McGinnis' father. That would make this kid, if it's not somehow Terry McGinnis, Terry's older half-sibling, along with Damian.

    Batman is lucky he never ended up on one of those paternity test TV shows...

    "Batman, you ARE the father!".
  16. SuperSoldier Devoted Player

    What I meant by reading between the lines, is that comics require the reader to visually fill in the gaps between panels and borders, visually and literally "reading between the lines." Not necessarily looking for deeper meaning.

    I agree with not seeing any ill intentions from Barbara. We should just blame the writer for this...
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    It's the way she miscarries and the timing that is just all too "convenient." We may not know for sure but the image of her in a fetal position, under a spotlight that forms a womb/egg shape surrounding her and her expression strongly suggests that something is wrong with her pregnancy.

    Is the original show runner/writer even involved in this comic series anymore?