Where do you draw the line?

Did Star Wars Galaxies? Did Marvel Heroes? The official City of Heroes? The Matrix Online? EverQuest Next? Final Fantasy XIV?

For every long-lasting MMPRPG, there are a dozen failures. Each MMORPG is its own thing in its own context. I don't think we can reasonably claim that any one factor is a guarantee of anything.

Would DCUO be here without reply badges?

We don't know. We have no way of knowing. We can't know. It's pointless to debate the question with no control to compare.

Hence , why I said it was my opinion lol, because yes, we will never know, but it's fun to hypothesize.

That's a good question and the answer would only come from you. In our eyes, we saw what it did to the content trivialization. Where players were constantly resetting instances so they can get the best gear and be done with the content for several months until the next DLC. This resulted in monthly content, which I feel was the lowest time for content. (I still think OC was the worst for players, but at least it was developed better.) If anything, I would say that time capsules having feats had a bigger carry for the game, as detestable they are for the players, it did produce revenue.

But was the game tanking right before T4? Did Replay Badges need to be added to keep the lights on in 2012? Was the hack the biggest problem that needed replays to be made?

I agree with your expression around content trivialization. I think often people love the idea of a reset, but bury their head in the sand the moment the negative consequences surrounding their use dare get mentioned.

Spamming content and running isn't really healthy for the player base or more wider play satisfaction. It allows a very individualistic "in and out" approach for the singular players, while neglecting the fact MMO's in a more wider fashion rely on a community that is coming in and out of the game every day and every week, not just for the first 2 weeks or a month of a DLC, because they've smashed it all prematurely.

So is the purpose of this thread to hate on replay badges or time capsules? Neither are required to be purchased to play the game, they are entirely optional just like membership. I previously would buy $100 or more in replay badges when double currency week came around PRIOR to stats clamp because I wanted the best gear & to have the best stats my character could have. After the GU 116, I stopped for reasons being I thought it was useless to try to get stronger or better anymore. But I have since been informed that line of thinking is not entirely accurate, so I intend to buy me some replay badges during the next bonus currency week to get my gold level gear.

I don’t understand the argument that once people get fully geared with the best gear from using replay badges, that they then ignore the game until the next DLC comes out. I get my gear so I can be the strongest in the current content. That’s my enjoyment in this game other than the socialization aspects. As far as timecapsules go, if someone wants to buy the things with the money they earned themselves, let them spend it how they want. It’s theirs to use or waste however they want. If Daybreak wants to reward them with a feat, it’s no concern of mine.

I read the OP as meaning "what kinds of monetization are not ok?" and by extension "has DCUO already crossed that line?"

Ranting and complaining and hating aside, I think those are good questions for both the community and the developers to consider from time to time.

It's not a good or a bad thing, as you say, it's probably kept the lights on. But it did open the door. I feel vindicated because what I said would happen, did. I was told it would never happen, that marks and styles were untouchable. In any corporate enterprise nothing legal is untouchable.

Interested to know why. I mean you were right about the slippery slope, but do you think replay badges themselves have ruined the game?

Time capsules are only voluntary in so far as how much a person is subjectively prepared to forgo the given progress.

feats being tied within time capsules is effectively selling progress and arguably pay2win in some respects, to what extent exactly I'm not really interested in debating, because its irrelevant, it is at least pay2win to 'some extent' and for the sake of the point I'm making, that's all that matters.

When you sell actual character progress that makes your character stronger then people are going to feel compelled to buy, we can dismiss how "technically compulsory" time capsules are all we like, but when you include progress that only becomes harder to get the longer you leave them, the more it is preying on that persons desire to be the "best the can be" while making them pay for it in a manner that is effectively gambling.

Loot boxes prey on that player desire in order to make money and for that reason, they are predatory, they certainly make money and I understand why the developers desire to use them because making money obviously makes the world go round, but at the end of the day "a spade, is a spade".

There is also a reason the very best cosmetics in the game are hidden behind RNG gambling walls, because exploiting players "cosmetic desires" to the maximum extent achieves, exactly, the same thing but to a different target audience, with naturally some overlapping.

They're double dipping on both "perfectionist, min-max type players" and "casual cos players" to the maximum extent possible.

Technically using "electricity" is optional, but that doesn't mean we don't, it obviously makes life easier if we do, in a similar fashion it's technically optional to open time capsules, but that doesn't mean our experience is going to be better if we don't, it almost certainly is going to be better, if we do open them and they know it - that's why they sell.

I said this at the very, very beginning when it was all but 4 SP, wait for this to snowball ladies and gentlemen, I said, others were like "nah it's fine bro, you're over reacting", years later here we are, remind me again, how many SP and how much progress is now hidden behind the time capsule wall? LOL

As for replay badges, people very much do, spam content and then run off never to be seen again unless a bonus week perks their interest or a new DLC is released, this demonstrably does happen, not everyone does it, some people loosely stick around, but you shouldn't for a moment think replay badges don't "thin the player herd" incredibly prematurely in to a DLC's life cycle.

I agree that people's own money is there's to spend as they wish, no one can suggest otherwise, but that doesn't mean there isn't a balance between allowing players to spend in a way that is healthy but also not ultimately destructive to the wider integrity of the game.

Also, just because someone has a "right to spend their money as they wish" also doesn't mean there aren't ways to "waste money" in a sense that is entirely objectively factual.

We as a society shouldn't be preying and exploiting of their money through things like 'gambling', it isn't right to simply justify and exploit the psychological weaknesses of individuals (possibly those even with gambling addictions) because we want to tell ourselves "it's their right to spend their money as they wish" that's simply enabling the exploitation of other people.

Ruined? Absolutely not. I do think they changed the culture of the game at the time. I remember at the reset on Thursday morning, all the "leet" players would run all the raids. Those people would then run the raids without marks teaching the mechanics to the "noobs". Especially if you were in a league.
There was a culture of, at the risk of making it sound grandiose, mentoring. At the same time, it meant people who started the game at the same time, levelled up at the same time. There was an equanimity to that which I think was lost.

All the same, replay badges now meant I didn't have to run things for free anymore, so my time was compensated. And with the culture change, it meant the "leets" could now gear up completely in a weekend.

I don't understand how time capsules are pay2win. What does a player obtain from opening a time capsule that could possibly disadvantage me? If anything, by me being a member one could say that I have the advantage over the free to play players who don't value this game enough to support it by means of subscribing. I get stabilizers as a perk of membership so I can open time capsules for free. To be time capsules are just an over glorified version of the Vault full of crap I usually don't need or want. If pay2win is in reference to the chance of receiving a feat that counts towards SP then possibly, possibly that could be a way as opposed to achieving a feat by game play or completing a collection or style. Perhaps a limit to the number of time capsules one can open in a day or week or even a month would satisfy the need to shepherd players with a gambling addiction, at least as far as this game is concerned. We can clamp them! There is nothing like time capsules in Final Fantasy XIV and I don't play any other MMO so my experience with them is limited to DCUO.

Personally I don't really care for them as they clutter up my inventory slots. If one thinks logically about it, anything that one spends real money on but you can't actually re-sell it in the real world should be considered a waste, and I have wasted money in that sense playing DCUO and Final Fantasy XIV. I will say that what I obtained from them in exchange for my real money brought me entertainment and enjoyment.

I don't know when replay badges were first introduced, I've played since 2014 but I didn't really pay any attention to such things back then. It seems to me that there is an ebb & flow to this game: Incredibly active when a DLC first releases, then within the first few weeks afterwards interest declines until the weekly reset with Thursday & Friday being the busiest days. Interest picks up again during the double <insert here> weeks. This has been the ebb & flow for as long as I can remember since the first stats revamp happened.

I guess I just don't feel as strongly about this as others. It doesn't really seem that big of a deal to me. Just play the game and enjoy the entertainment value it offers without worrying how anyone else got SP or whatever. Nothing will ever surpass the feeling of working your way up to the top of the game and making your character the strongest she can be! Crushing those NPCs and Bosses brings such delight, at least it does in the most recent 3 DLCs.

Haha, you've cast aside the pay2win element in your first few sentences but then correctly hit the nail on the head in the next few sentences as to exactly why it actually is pay2win

Again, the extent to which something might be considered "pay2win" is possibly somewhat debtable, but that's why I said debating that wasn't necessary, all that was necessary for my point to be valid was that there is "some pay2win" and irrespective of how much, any amount whatsoever makes the point I was making valid, so the debate was unnecessary.

You've hit the nail on the head however in your mention of feats and skill points, when I open time capsules and obtain all the related feats I obtain feats that you do not, that gives me additional skill points that gives my character greater stats, you might consider those statistically irrelevant, but again, that's besides the point, they're there regardless and they still provide me with "more".

We've had, I believe 23 capsules now, I don't exactly remember how many might be in each capsule, but let's say its around 5SP (give or take), that means hidden behind the paywall is now 115 skill points, that's quite a significant number by the way and the statistical improvement I'm receiving as a player from those, compared to someone without them, is quite reasonable.

The time capsules of course have a "free route" some are given away through daily rewards, but don't fool yourself in to thinking the free route is a practical solution, it isn't. The odds are incredibly low, you'll complete some things, such as some emblems and gear styles, but the amount you get for free will never allow you to remotely get close to finishing anything significant, without opening your wallet and it's designed that way on purpose.

The quark vendor is the same, before you jump on that as an option, the only place you get quarks is either through spending itself or through conversion of source marks and destiny token of which you effectively pay for elsewhere. The source mark conversions are again kept prohibitively low on purpose so as to again compel the opening of a wallet. All in chase of "progress" or "cosmetic appeal".

These loot boxes, again, prey on the psychological desires of the players and attempt to maximize revenue gathering while giving very little chance of the player actually getting what they want short of dumping potentially endless money, it's a virtual casino. There's no other way to describe it and attempting to do so is a denial of reality. What makes matters worse, at least from my perspective is that this game is rated "T" for "teen".

Soliciting teenagers to gamble in this manner is currently a "grey area" within many jurisdictions and gambling laws are in place for a reason, to protect people, so despite the fact "video game loot boxes, currently aren't illegal in most places", they're arguably in many respects quite morally reprehensible when considering them in that respect.

It's one thing for an adult to gamble, I've gambled myself, it can be a bit of lighthearted fun from time to time, but that's why its restricted to functional adults, because they know when to stop and they also know when they're being screwed. That equation becomes entirely different in the less than fully formed brain of a teenager and we shouldn't be creating an environment that allows such a person to be exploited.

This happens throughout the entire video game industry and in my personal opinion, I find it quite shameful that we can't just have transparent marketplaces and transactions that allow me to properly purchase something without me having to just throw money at a screen with absolutely no guarantee I'll ever get what they're telling me they want me to have and then there's the whole fake "virtual rarity/limited supply" type issue that gets portrayed, but I'll leave that, because it's a much wider issue lol.

As for the membership as well, that once did provide players with quite a significant advantage, even as far as the cash cap, this allowed members to participate in the broker and thus also in the time capsules through that method in a way free players could not do unless they paid escrow, that again is quite a lengthy debate, but in short, the removal of membership benefits in 2021 has made the membership nothing but a monthly "micro transaction", you're paying for some stabilizers, replays, 500DBC and stuff from the Fate Vendor, seals, nth metal etc.

Is that worth it as a micro transaction - economically yes, does it provide a player with a significant advantage to be subscribed? Not really, but if you're going to be buying seals and the like anyway then it makes sense to simply subscribe.

Again in terms of replays, I agree that the game goes in ebbs and flows, what the replays do though is alter the natural tide, The natural rhythm of the ocean is being adjusted and it is certainly, without exception having an impact on the longevity of any and every DLC.

How many MMORPG games out there went f2p so they wouldn't shutdown? How many didn't go f2p and still shutdown. How many MMOs lost players/revenue by going f2p? If you take outliers and compare them to the average, you'll definetely get a biased result. You can't just pick the top 2 MMOs, compare them to a random MMO by a random factor and say the factor is what caused it.

I know you didn't mean to go into a deep discussion, but I have to deal with people making this kind of assumption everyday and it annoys me lol.

But OC was one of the most popular dlcs ever as stated by Mepps.

It's hard to talk about replays trivializing content, because when there were no replays, players complained they couldn't play anything other than a single alert daily. Right now even if you reset to death, you will still come back for the weekly reset. Back in the day, you could only come back for the weekly reset.

It feels like monthly content wasn't a response to replays, it was a response to 5 years of players complaining the dlcs took too long to arrive and it was also a response to a bad character development model, that still exists today.

It was merely an opinion based on observation, you could cherry pick all sorts of stuff to likely justify an opinion that differs, in the same you're suggesting my opinion is also based on cherry picking.

At the end of the day, some games survived perfectly well, never going free to play, others did not. Some probably needed to go free to play, others maybe chose to go free to play when they didn't really need to do so, but simply chose to and may have subsequently succeeded or maybe even not or who knows what might have happened with the alternative decision.

At the end of the day neither of us is going to be able to prove conclusively whether or not their opinion holds more merit as it is entirely a guessing game, you'll choose to believe what you choose, as will I, hence why it's entirely an opinion haha, I did also make that fact abundantly clear

With that being said and more aimed towards the wider question that was originally posed, which was, would the game have been around 10 years without replay badges, I think more likely than not it would have been, in my opinion.

No. Don't ask if something is something, and then answer it to your satisfaction before you know if something is something.

The purpose of this thread is to ask exactly what it says in the title, with clarification on what I mean in the OP, and ask for replies.

That is the purpose of this (and often any, TBH) thread.

I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean. I can take that many ways.

Are you saying we wouldn't be here right now, financially, if there hadn't been replay badges?

Specifically, did the continued existence of DCUO rely on Replay Badge Sales in the past?

Can you answer that one, specific, question, please?

Yeah, you can know. You can ask for transparency in the way the game is funded. It's not a huge deal. You just haven't done it yet. And is therefore impossible in your view. Dare to ask.

See my question immediately above this response.

"PAY TO WIN" in a game that has no victory conditions other than finishing content is a red herring. You get the same rewards if you drop 1 minute into a fight than if you top the scoreboard.

What people largely mean by "Pay To Win" with regard to DCUO is "Do things with less effort than I have to expend". Or maybe just "Survive". But as I said, you don't usually need to survive to get rewards... you just have to be in the fight.

It is absolutely true that if you max your artifacts by paying, you can do that. But then we have to ask ourselves "Is it my artifacts that are good, or am *I* good?", and "Does it matter how bad I am if I can max my artifacts?"

Note the focus of both is not your ability, but how levelled your artifacts are.

One you can buy. The other you can't.

Highlighting a point in parenthesis... I would assume people would understand that it was not related to the point, but okay.

Monthly content WAS because players would sub one month and drop the next 2-3 months. They've tried to add things to get players to come back in those months, but decided to create the escalator gear grind.